From 2012 through 2018, Kerry Washington played Washington, D.C.—fixer Olivia Pope alongside Tony Goldwyn’s President Fitzgerald Grant on “Scandal,” the Shonda Rhimes-created sensation. Olivia and Fitz — “Olitz” to their superfans — couldn’t stay away from each other, never mind that he was married and the president of the United States and that they met when she was hired to work on his campaign. “Scandal” was appointment television, as Olivia and her staff, whom she proudly declared “gladiators in suits,” used every trick available to them to win.
Not only was “Scandal” a total blast, but the casting of Washington — a Black woman — as its lead revolutionized representation on television. Rhimes would say, according to Goldwyn, “I just write the world as I see it, and I think it should be,” and Washington finishes his thought: “The world is constantly catching up to her.”
Mary Ellen Matthews for Variety
Washington is the star and an executive producer of her most recent project, the Apple TV thriller “Imperfect Women.” With it, she sought to build “an environment where people feel safe enough to take big risks and big swings,” she tells Goldwyn during their Actors on Actors conversation. On the limited series, based on Araminta Hall’s 2020 novel of the same name, Washington plays Eleanor, a successful CEO whose life is upended when one of her best friends is murdered.
Goldwyn is a double threat this television season. On “Hacks,” he plays Bob Lipka, the dickhead media overlord holding comedian Deborah Vance (Jean Smart) to the strictest interpretation of her contract’s noncompete, after she quit being a late-night talk show host on his network. And on “Law & Order,” which Goldwyn joined in March 2024 as Manhattan district attorney Nicholas Baxter, he’s filled the role Sam Waterston played for decades. When the show’s producers approached Goldwyn for the part, he says, “it felt like a privilege.”
In the series finale of “Scandal,” Olivia walked away from the White House, literally, as a montage showing each character played. Her future is the most mysterious, since the audience is shown that there will be a painting of her in the National Portrait Gallery, an honor usually reserved for presidents. As for Olitz? Fitz’s last moments on-screen with Olivia are them saying “Hi” to each other, which was always their way of reconnecting. Do Washington and Goldwyn think their characters ended up making jam in Vermont together? You’ll have to read on to find out.
Kerry Washington: Do people constantly ask you to run for president in real life?
Tony Goldwyn: Yes, generally on a street corner. Don’t you get Olivia Pope’d all the time?
Washington: Yes, constantly. And that I should run for office, or “Olivia Pope, you have to fix this!” So what do you say to people?
Goldwyn: Well, I used to say thank you so much, but that’s a really bad idea.
Washington: I don’t think you would be a terrible president, to be honest. Because you’d assemble a really wonderful Cabinet and team around you. And you care!
Goldwyn: I would. I’d bring you in.
Washington: You would not bring me. I would not be available. You’re such a nice guy, clearly.
Goldwyn: First of all, Kerry is saying something nice to me. Doesn’t happen very often.
Washington: You play such a jerk on “Hacks.”
Goldwyn: I was a massive fan. So when they asked me to do a part, I literally didn’t even read it. I was like, “Please sign me up.” Bob Lipka, who is head of a media company — he’s just one of those guys. I can’t name names, because I’ll get in trouble, but there are several of them who run these big companies.
Washington: He’s so mean. I want to know, is it inspired by somebody?
Goldwyn: So I did say once, and they were like [whispers], “Don’t say that.” I’ve known several of those kinds of guys, and I don’t have a judgment about them. Those jobs are tough. At the end of Season 5, Jean and I have this crazy scene where Bob Lipka steps to new heights — or depths, however you want to look at it — in his efforts to rein in the brilliant Deborah Vance. It was a privilege to be a part of that show.
Now back at you, I am obsessed with “Imperfect Women.” You and Elisabeth Moss and Kate Mara and Corey Stoll and Joel Kinnaman — all my favorite actors are on that show.
Washington: Elisabeth Moss found the book in 2019, and she knew right away that she wanted to play Mary. The part she offered me was Eleanor. One of my favorite things about the book, which we have been able to capture in the show, is this idea that the show shifts perspective. When you’re first reading the book, it feels like it’s going to be an entire novel from Eleanor’s perspective. And then you turn a page and it says “Nancy” and you’re like, “Oh, now I’m going to get this story from the point of view of the dead lady!” And then it shifts again, and it’s Mary. We do that on the show. It meant that rather than having a call sheet that was like one, two, three of who’s the lead actor, we really had a show with three No. 1s. All three of us carry that show together.
Goldwyn: You sure do.
Washington: One of the things that drew me to Eleanor was that all three of us, Kate and Lizzie and myself, we’ve played strong women where the forces that we’re up against are these big, bad forces. Whether it’s Gilead or the White House or journalism — we’re up against these big forces. But on this show, the forces that we’re up against are much more internal. The big bad is our own sense of denial and fear and insecurity. And that kind of inner turmoil was really exciting to play with such a brilliant cast.
Goldwyn: So did you develop the script together?
Mary Ellen Matthews for Variety
Washington: Annie Weisman was already on board as our showrunner when I came on board. But Simpson Street and Love & Squalor, Lizzie Moss’ company, along with Annie, we really built out the show. Built the writers’ room, hired the heads of departments, hired the directors, built the cast together.
Goldwyn: And your work is superb.
Washington: Oh, Tony, thank you. As a producer, I love when our costume designers or set designers go home going like, “Wow, I think this might be my best work.” I felt like on this show, I got to do that for myself also. I got to create an environment where I was able to do some of the strongest, most courageous work I’ve ever done before.
Can I ask you a question about “Law & Order”?
Goldwyn: Sure!
Washington: Were you terrified to step into the iconic Sam Waterston role? I mean, those are such big shoes to fill, and he’s so beloved. Was that intimidating? Inspiring?
Goldwyn: It was inspiring. I was excited to do it. Sam was one of my acting heroes. I got to direct him once on “Law & Order,” 20-some years ago. I can’t fill Sam’s shoes; that’s impossible. But the character I play is a totally different guy; he’s just in the same job. And they’ve created a really interesting character, and the reason the show’s good is they still care about the writing so much.
Washington: I’ve done three episodes! Three different characters in the universe.
Goldwyn: We keep trying to get you back.
Washington: How fun would that be?
Goldwyn: They’re like, “Can we get Kerry?” I’m like, “I’m bugging her. I’m always bugging her.”
Should we get into “Scandal”? Fitz and Olivia? We’re still taking pictures together.
Washington: People are so passionate about Olitz, still. Also, have you noticed this thing online where some people are like, “Now that I’m older and I watch the relationship, I’m not sure how healthy it is.” Have you seen any of that?
Goldwyn: They’re just figuring that out? Interesting!
Washington: They weren’t the healthiest couple. That doesn’t mean they weren’t madly in love, but they had some difficulties, which is why people loved it. What did you think about the ending?
Goldwyn: I loved it.
Washington: I did too. The “Hi” in the street. I don’t mean the portrait stuff — I mean our ending, the Olitz ending.
Goldwyn: I felt like it all was part of the same thing. And I have a very strong opinion about what happened.
Washington: People feel very strongly that they’re in Vermont, making jam and all that. Do you feel that way?
Goldwyn: I feel that Fitz and Olivia are together.
Washington: What are they doing?
Goldwyn: I feel that what we had at the root of it was very real, and it’s why we could never get away from it — as opposed to being something that was ultimately dysfunctional. I thought ultimately these two people were their answer to each other.
Washington: Do you feel like maybe they’re in couples therapy now?
Goldwyn: Yes, regularly! Because they know that’s what they have to do to survive. But I think Fitz spent some time in Vermont. He needed to get out of the toxic patterns.
Washington: Did he make jam on his own?
Goldwyn: I think Olivia probably taught him how to make jam, but then when she ate his jam, she’s like, “Your jam sucks!”
Washington: Your jam is terrible.
Mary Ellen Matthews for Variety
Goldwyn: But I feel like he was very supportive of her trajectory — whether she became president of the United States or whatever her thing was, I feel like his real jones was to help this woman be, like …
Washington: Her biggest, best self.
Goldwyn: Her best self!
Washington: That’s beautiful, Tony.
Goldwyn: Don’t you look back on times in your life where shit was just going wrong and you were making bad choices — you were doing some things amazingly, but other things were a mess, and you’ve now come through that and you look back and go, “I’m so glad I did that, because that was all part of the process.”
Washington: When I look back at the times in my life that were a mess, I think, “but for the grace of God — thank God that I made it through.” I was talking yesterday with my manager about being so grateful that “Scandal” didn’t happen earlier in my life. Because I would not have been able to handle it. It required so much leadership and responsibility and accountability and communication skills and teamwork. It required such a level up for me as a human being.
Also at that time, I got married, and had my own real family. And if any of that had happened sooner, I would have destroyed it. Destroyed it. So I do think maybe things were harder earlier on because I needed to grow and learn to be able to meet this moment.
Goldwyn: Same with me. The whole thing is a miracle.
Washington: That rocket ship we were all on together.
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